Talk:Shadow Form/Archive1
General Chat Nice elite for a 55hp :p 02:16, 20 March 2006 (CST) :Well skills that make your foes can't hit you are not loved by 55 monks. --Karlos 15:29, 20 March 2006 (CST) ::Kinda depends. Using this already means you can't use Shield of Judgment. So your damage is probably going to depend on something else. Additionally, this will prevent a 55 monk from using Bonettie's Defense, so energy source is another issue. So, in one sense, 55 monks in their current general form have no use for this skill. But if there are competing energy and damage resources from the Assassin line, it might be a great option. This is Spell Breaker + Bonettie without the energy gain. -SolaPan 17:47, 20 March 2006 (CST) :::Blah, very short duration relative to recharge though, probably not gonna be useful for 55 afterall. -SolaPan 17:48, 20 March 2006 (CST) This skill combines perfectly with a mesmer secondary. Cast Illusion of Weakness, Arcane Echo, Shadow Form: near constant invulnerability! This could be the best runner in the game... :Health lost through Shadow Form will most likely not trigger Illusion of Weakness, so don't count on that to bring you back to full health. --theeth 19:21, 11 April 2006 (CDT) ::It should trigger Illusion of Weakness, It will be one of the first things I test when I cap this elite however. Source of it not triggering? --Draygo Korvan 11:33, 25 April 2006 (CDT) :::Tested it, Shadow form does not directly trigger Illusion of Weakness. --Draygo Korvan 12:12, 2 May 2006 (CDT) This is one hell of a dangerous enchantment if the ending loss of health is triggered when the enchant is stripped, which I suspect it is. :Strip it? How? Well of the Profane and Chilblains are the only counters against this, and not very good ones considering the assassin's high mobility. ::Another assassin could strip it with Expunge Enchantments I think, cause that's just a touch not a hit - this needs to be tested - ... leaving you one hit from death. --MasterPatricko 14:29, 5 May 2006 (CDT) You might be able to use this to do the Doppelganger battle in Augury rock. Get the dopp to hit it, you use it a few seconds later, the dopp's will run out and you should be able to thwack him in one or two good hits. Is there anything wrong with this theory? --Kit Engel 05:33, 6 May 2006 (CDT) :Nothing, but its probably better with Expunge Enchantments and you just not using Shadow Form at all. :) Not sure how easy to get him to use it is though. Ubermancer 20:37, 12 August 2006 (CDT) :Just put only Shadow Form and an enchant strip on your bar and nothing else. Max daggers out. Once he uses it, strip and strike. You could probably do it in ten seconds if you were lucky. >> Kessel 05:13, 15 September 2006 (CDT) ::I would guess that the doppelganger won't use shadow form until it's low on health. --Fyren 05:23, 15 September 2006 (CDT) You might be able to arcane echo this or even copy it from allies (whatever skill that is) to double its length. However does that make you lose the health from the first copy? --MasterPatricko 05:26, 7 May 2006 (CDT) :You can indeed use Arcane Echo and Arcane Mimicry to keep this enchantment up past the normal duration without triggering the massive health loss. Schesis 20:59, 14 July 2006 (CDT) Am I the only one who's getting his health dropped to 52-55 at 16 shadow arts instead of the stated 53? It seems to be random. Armond :Works fine for me. --Fyren 16:16, 27 January 2007 (CST) ::Been using this on Acolyte Sousuke while HFFFing and when shadow form ends, Sousuke's health drops below 1 at 12 shadow arts. At first i thought i had some enchantment mod that gave +45 hp while enchanted and when SF ends that buff is removed but that didn't seem to be the case. Could it be bugged? --Arthas 18:00, 28 October 2007 (UTC) Things to test Can anyone give an explanation (beside bug) of why Avatar of Grenth fails to remove Shadow Form. It should remove when the style is used. Seems like it is not a simple "makes miss" but instead remove attacks as a whole. : Avatar of Grenth requires u to acctually hit with an attack in order to remove an enchantment. Shadow Form causes all attacks to miss and therefore can not be removed by AoG. --Arthas 18:02, 28 October 2007 (UTC) Does it prevent damage from IW? LordKestrel 11:19, 25 April 2006 (CDT) : I think not, attacks with IW on already miss, you'll still take the damage Skuld 11:22, 25 April 2006 (CDT) :: That's why I marked it as something to test :) LordKestrel 11:29, 25 April 2006 (CDT) ::: You should note however, that it might be just as efficient to wait until it's ended to anyways. Unless they're already low. -Kingrames ::: IW goes through Shadow Form, and as mentioned above, it'll be better to just wait for it to end, unless the user is half dead already. Mainly confirming this, as I slashed a 'sin using it at Aspenwood -Kaguya Do AoE spells that do not directly target the shadow-formed assassin work? :I think they do, as much as they work on targets with Spell Breaker on them. --Akaraxle 03:06, 5 May 2006 (CDT) :Yes, I saw numerous times afflicted assassin using this skill die during its duration from a Death Nova. Likewise, their on-death explosions damaged me while testing the skill. --Thervold 13:57, 8 May 2006 (CDT) Does Expunge Enchantments work to remove it? --MasterPatricko 14:29, 5 May 2006 (CDT) :I think it does. Shadow Form protects from spells, but Expunge Enchantments is a skill. --Akaraxle 05:30, 9 May 2006 (CDT) ::It does, I have removed it from another assassin on my assassin. -Kaguya Question: If you have Shadow Arts at level 12, and it runs out when you have <41 health, will it heal you? Removed that from the article. --Xasxas256 10:06, 6 May 2006 (CDT) What happens if you Arcane Echo it? Basically, do you lose health from the first Shadow Form if you renew the enchantment? --MasterPatricko 05:26, 7 May 2006 (CDT) : Since the effect lowers your health to a number, it will only cause you to lose health if you have more hp than that. Copying the skill means you get twice as much out of it. -Kingrames :::Tested that in Tomb of the Primevil Kings - got Empathy on me before Shadow Form went up, so I reduced myself to 3 hp attacking... Then SF ended and I still had 3 hp. Armond ::You won't lose health if you recast Shadow Form before it expires. Make sure don't cast it too late or you'll lose health when it expires just before you recast it! --Dark Luke 16:50, 22 May 2006 (CDT) Does it prevent damage from non-spell touch skills such as Iron Palm and Vampiric Touch? --Thervold 14:00, 8 May 2006 (CDT) : Likely, those are treated as spells and don't work. Testing may be necessary, since they're only called skills, but it's hard to believe that Iron Palm and Palm Strike aren't either a) attacks or b) spells. -Kingrames ::As a rule of thumb, skills are not affected by enchantments such as Spell Breaker and Obsidian Flesh. Skill is a type on its own and different from Spell; for instance, Shock is known to get through Spell Breaker, isn't affected by Migraine and cannot be interrupted by Power Drain (though Cry of Frustration does work). --Akaraxle 04:08, 11 May 2006 (CDT) :::It does not prevent damage from Vampiric Touch or Vampiric Bite. Tested. -- 03:12, 29 June 2006 (CDT) Does it prevent damage from signets like Unnatural Signet and Signet of Judgment? :Signets are not spells, hence it should not. --Akaraxle 04:08, 11 May 2006 (CDT) Would Sand Shards still hurt the player? It's not a direct attack since it triggers upon missing, or so I last checked. Kamahl 14:26, 19 September 2006 (CDT) will targeting someone with an attack skill while in the form of Grenth (Avatar of Grenth) work since it doesn't say hit, but it says use?Go defenestrate yourself. :I remember dying pretty fast to Avatar of Grenth as a E/A with shadow form, and as far as I know there aren't other enchant removes, so my guess is yes grenth's removes enchantments even if it doesn't hit. Should be tested to make sure though. ::No, it only removes on a hit. Avatar of Grenth won't work against SF. --Fyren 12:27, 27 July 2007 (CDT) How to Shadowform do it 60 seconds or infinite loop like me and my brother invented.3 skills shadow form arcane echoe (arcane mimicry) with shadow form, or echoe elites on partner, and(assassin's promise =45 second kill clock)which partner can mimic your shadow form while using diff elite. this with the following equipment is 60 second loop, or infinite cycle see ranger sq nature quickening use a dagger handle enchants 20% longer 16 in shadow arts, exploit this better than iway ever was build with 3 superior ruins its safer carry different armour encase you see the 3% of skills able to touch you, change to non-sup armour 5 slots for health or whatever you discover Listed metagame counters. Smite monk, signet humility(you can use signet disablers as your a mesmer with 5 free skills) touch necro, area dmg. Keep in-mind it would be banned as people realise and use this build if it didnt have these weaknesses so I implore you to work past them. Like iway it takes 2 twin assins. Well instead of 8 w/r also try natures quikening/sq/ A/R or R/- an assin ranger using x to place rit quikening behind him can do infinitely alone This proves assassins confident in ther survial rate usualy immune and lifts the curse of assins cant find party die to fast theories, which plague the new Job's moral and popularity cap south of zou kou cooridor first boss b4 name of area on map quik & ez. Also spawns at Vizzunah square at first fight where groups meet, usualy spawns on balcony scene if you want it quikly cap now. my mesmer assin cant do infinite loop just 60 seconds with 5 second down time which is really slick still with mimicry. Its a very arcane build. walk through spikes run! farm together waste enimies enrgy and time reach your goals assasins, slap on those sup crit and dagger ruins safely ftw. I couldn't forge run with it solo 40-45 sec ehnchnat 20% version but i got to beacons from Lions Arch myself. 2 can run most any area i can think or farm or gvg everything Martin Rolland tanogra@hotmail.com emails welcome friends :Hee hee, bet you can't run past a Grawl Crone. :) --Karlos 04:48, 21 June 2006 (CDT) :Lol. Anywho, that would take a lot of work, coordination, and reduction in damage potential. And you couldn't forge run cause of knockdowns (which some are skills, not attacks. I find it useful in *some* running situations... but not for a dedicated runner. I find it best used in emergencies when you're getting low on health. Sure you'll die when it comes off... but you woulda died anyways. To me its like an endure pain that blocks spells. —''The preceding unsigned comment was added by'' 152.7.18.136 (talk • ) 09:39, 21 June 2006 (CDT). Shadow of Haste duration has been changed. Needs further checking on that part. Jylilaht 12:58, 14 September 2006 (CDT) My math puts a two man shadow form A/me build at a 75 second duration, ouch. Two invincible A/me's ganking your monks for 75 seconds, extra ouch.--24.150.37.198 06:44, 23 November 2006 (CST) I saw two assassins use that method stated above in the Arenas (can't remember which). It was pretty pathetic. They were dead in like 5 seconds -- [[User:One Three Three Seven|'One Three Three Seven']] 09:07, 16 July 2007 (CDT) Unsuspeced effect Double Dragon (spell, elementalist, fire magic) is capable to damage me while in shadow form. To test: simply exit from marketplace and seek a group with a Jade Brotherhood Mage. What I see exacly is: "-68 (double dragon)", and is alto strangely less than the usual 100+ dmg :Double Dragon does not target a person it does AoE damage at the position of the caster. As for the -68 I don't know. Did you have a Spirit or Prot Henchman in your team? Or did you wear an armor with conditional boni like +15 while attacking? --SET 08:10, 12 August 2006 (CDT) Yet another thing an exploding dervish can bypass-they cast enchants of themselves, which effects others. :The description isn't hard to follow, it says "all hostile spells that target you", so naturally untargeted stuff aint gonna affect :p — Skuld 17:25, 24 January 2007 (CST) Cyclone axe ? I saw that Cyclone Axe is listed as hitting shadowformed targets - has this been tested? I don't think it is an AoE attack, it must run a separate attack against all foes around the warrior (else how would it determine individual damage?). All attacks against shadow form will miss, therefore cyclone axe shouldn't hit shadowform. :while it is implied that cyclone axe, tripple chop etc would hit, a literal interpretation would sugguest the attack is not targeting anything, and therefore would not be affected by shadow form. scrimage? --Honorable Sarah image:Honorable_Icon.gif 17:23, 16 August 2006 (CDT) ::Whether it targets them or not, Triple Chop mentions "Each attack that hits" and Cyclone Axe has "striking for +4...10 damage", where the + implies bonus damage on top of weapon damage. I doubt any of them hits through shadow form, but if they do, I'd be even more curious to see if Order of Apostasy could then be used to remove shadow form (which would seriously be messed up). --Theeth (talk) 17:51, 16 August 2006 (CDT) :::There is no reason they would be any different from normal attacks. The cause adrenelaine gain, like normal attacks, unlike death blossom AoE dmg. They use your weapond damage, unlike any non-attack AoE. I have seen them blocked/evaded/miss before there is no reason SF would be any different.--Devils Apprentice 20:28, 20 March 2007 (CDT) cyclone des both aoe and regular damage for example you must select a target (last time i checked anyway) to use cyclone axe then all foe adjacent receive aoe like death blossom so if you target say a monk with no enchants on who is adjacent to an assassin with shadow form you would hit the assassin but if you taregt the assassin you will miss (dunno if you still hit the monk tho). Cry Would Cry of Frustration interrupt a recasting of Shadow Form or Arcane Echo? —''The preceding unsigned comment was added by'' 74.112.104.252 ( ) }. :You'd have to use cry to interrupt someone nearby to get the AoE interrupt to interrupt the assassin, but it's possible. --Fyren 03:57, 17 September 2006 (CDT) Incorrect, cry is a skill, not a spell. —''The preceding unsigned comment was added by'' 24.218.218.237 ( ) }. :Cry is a spell. --Fyren 09:36, 6 December 2006 (CST) ::Cry of Frustration <----Click. Wiki says its a spell. VegaObscura 15:09, 18 January 2007 (CST) :::GW itself says Cry is a spell. --Arthas 10:47, 31 May 2007 (CDT) Ranger skills to keep it up, why revert? As previously noted by 68.192.188.142: "Like Mist Form, Using ranger skills and enchanting mods you can keep this up permenently without losing health." Why was this reverted? I assume anon was referring to Serpent's Quickness or Quickening Zephyr to use to keep this up. --Ryard 22:10, 4 October 2006 (CDT) :With 16 Shadow Arts and a 20% enchanting mod, Shadow Form lasts 25.2 seconds. With Quickening Zephyr, Shadow Form recharges in 30 seconds. -Savio 22:19, 4 October 2006 (CDT) But with QZ and SQ it only takes 20 seconds to recharge. Next time read what Ryard said. --68.192.188.142 20:10, 5 October 2006 (CDT) ::See Recharge. -Savio 20:12, 5 October 2006 (CDT) :::What Savio is trying to say is that a recent patch changed limited the amount of cumulitive recharge from skills at 50%. It wouldn't matter if you had 20 individual skills with 25% faster recharge, it would be capped at 50%. You would need an individual skill to recharge it 60% faster to chain it back to back. (T/ ) 22:10, 5 October 2006 (CDT) Notes section mentions two things # Arcane Echo can help keep Shadow Form up longer. # Because attacks that target you "miss," attacks that cannot be blocked or evaded will still not hit. Were these 2 comments REALLY neccessary ? When I read them I was all "doh!" Is it really not clear for everyone that a "miss" is indeed different than a "block"/"evade" ? Or that Arcane Echo dupes spells for reuse ? I would expect the Notes section to only show facts that were once presumptions and have been tested since to prove a point, like the behaviour of Cyclone Axe on Shadow Form. n00kie 07:53, 6 October 2006 (CDT) :Remove bad information first, ask questions later. (Kidding... but if it's seriously bad info, I usually take the initiative.) On a side note, does Cyclone Axe actually hit through Shadow Form? -Savio 08:00, 6 October 2006 (CDT) ::I cleaned up the common sense stuff. Also, Cyclone Axe does not. --Karlos 08:09, 6 October 2006 (CDT) :::Lol, arcane echo keeps shadow form up longer? Sounds like the comment I read before which went somewhere along the lines of, Using an IAS will increase your DPS :P 64.229.19.184 20:25, 2 April 2008 (UTC) Reckless Haste timing IF timed well with reckless haste you can teleport out of there exactly when the enchantment ends. maybe not a fantastic idea but something i wanted to note ;) :I guess you mean Shadow of Haste? --CoRrRan 07:28, 23 November 2006 (CST) ::I assume that's what was meant as well, and I don't think this is possible. Both are Shadow Arts, so a high SA would mean a 54 sec (or longer, unsure of length at SA 16) for Shadow of Haste. Would only be possible if they were different attributes. -Scyfer 05:06, 13 December 2006 (CST) :::If you cancel Shadow of Haste with another Stance, you are teleported back to where you started SoH. So, it should be possible to use this the right way ;-) - ITiger 11:27, 19 December 2006 (GMT+1) ::::It used to be a common thing on Mo/A Blessed Light Monks. You just use Shadow of Haste to set a "home point" then when you are in trouble hit Dash to be teleported back to that point. VegaObscura 15:11, 18 January 2007 (CST) Illusion of Weakness Just noticed the history of this page where Illusion of Weakness was suggested, and then this was deleted back again since Shadow Form itself won't trigger the end of Illusion of Weakness. IoW would still be useful though as long as they took damage after SF ended, correct? Maybe leave the suggestion in there if this is the case since it would still be useful. --RabiesTurtle 16:57, 27 December 2006 (CST) :It's likely getting hit will kill you after SF ends. A real heal would be more useful. --Fyren 19:05, 27 December 2006 (CST) ::What I am not sure about is if IoW triggers before or after the damage is taken from your health. If it triggers as the damage happens instead of afterwards, then it would save you no matter what. I don't know either way right now but I suggest this is actually tested before tossing out the idea. I haven't been able to find notes from a test yet. --RabiesTurtle 20:15, 27 December 2006 (CST) :::After. --Fyren 20:43, 27 December 2006 (CST) Divine Intervention may be considerable with this :: Soqed Hozi :: 17:58, 7 January 2007 (CST) :except that Monk/Assassin with Shadow Form is kind of useless, spending as many points as you need into Shadow arts :P ::Only a year late! Timestamps own. Lord of all tyria 20:26, 2 April 2008 (UTC) A/Me Invincible Annoyance Came across a troublemaker in Random Arena last night who decided it would be fun to make a "nigh invincible" build using Shadow Form, Arcane Echo, Deadly Paradox, and Feigned Neutrality. Not sure what the other skills were but I think he also had some type of mesmer theft skill for extra annoyance, and was able to maintain shadow form constantly as best I could tell. Unfortunately he could do no damage so we were inevitably stalemated while he danced and ran around and waited for us to leave, ruining a nice winning streak we were having. Just wanted to complain here, I hope arenanet does something to nerf that combo. Ughhh people are stupid. -- BrianG 17:53, 10 January 2007 (CST) :I doubt they're going to. It's not a particularly powerful build anywhere, and they've never nerfed any supertank build in the past simply because it's obnoxious to face in the arenas. Really, though, I don't think they should have added Shadow Form to the game period. It's one of those skills that's always going to be either largely useless, or broken, but nowhere in-between, like Ether Renewal, barring major revisions to the way it works. Merengue 03:00, 15 January 2007 (CST) ::I also hope they do something to nerf this, I've recently seen multiple E/A Shadow Form AoE Eles ruining my Kurzick team in Aspenwood. They shadow form, shadow step in, and then unleash hellish AoE(Fire Storm, Bed of Coals, Phoenix, etc.) with a burning assist from Mark of Rodgort, it kills the gate NPCs and the Gatekeepers quickly (Which points out that they didn't get the AI update to move out of AoE) and half-kills Gunther. Unless we have a few touchers or mad PBAoE, they get away with murder and are back again all too soon. Phalmatticus 01:18, 6 May 2007 (CDT)Phalmatticus I just want to point out that its not the AI's fault for being knocked down and unable to run away :::There are soo many ways to counter that. Its the whole point of Guild Wars. 72.203.143.56 09:59, 22 May 2007 (CDT) I think that the Shadow Form chain is leet in PvE as you can tank the retarded AI whit no problems while the party's monks can conentrate on the few monsters that usually break of aggro, also using Shadow Form whit many superior runes (I myself use 2) will make your hp low and that makes you a priority target in a monsters eyes. In PvP it just plain sucks, as your damage output whit this skill chain will takes up (almost) all your energy will be very low. I don't think ANet should nerf it as it makes the Assassins able to become awsome tanks in PvE wich makes them able to get into PUGs. :Except that having 2 Superior runes will only make your Shadow Arts +3, not +6? ::good observation. if only it were possible to wear sup runes for two different attributes.... 19:48, 28 May 2008 (UTC) Extend Enchantments I saw a Dervish Primary in RA use Extend Enchantments, Deadly Paradox, and Shadow Form and somehow kept them up infinitely. I have no idea what other skills were used, but as it would seem even with 16 Mysticism and a staff wrapping of enchanting 20%, Extend Enchantments would not stay up for the required 30 seconds. This guy, unlike the assassin mentioned above, had heavy damage. Can anyone tell me how he did this? VegaObscura 15:16, 18 January 2007 (CST) :He probably had a low shadow arts spec so he could have near-max mystisism and scythe mastery. He would not have been able to reach no-downtime, but assuming 15 mystisism plus enchantment mod, combined with paradox he could have had 24 seconds of shadow form, 6 seconds downtime (not counting recast) — Skuld 15:26, 18 January 2007 (CST) ::Well you could never see his health visably drop. Maybe he used interventions so that when Shadow Form went down they would trigger and send his health back up. I don't know if you have to get hit before the interventions trigger, but whatever it was it kept him alive indefinately. If you do have to renew interventions everytime, the amount of time spent recasting enchantments might make his build not worth it. VegaObscura 02:31, 19 January 2007 (CST) :::Interventions trigger when you take damage, not when you lose health. --Armond Warblade (talk) 15:21, 2 May 2007 (CDT) ::::Did he deal any damage? From that you could tell if he was simply maxing out both mysticism and shadow arts. M s4 17:41, 2 May 2007 (CDT) :::::Faithful Intervention and Vital Boon both give +health when they end. Combined with Extend Enchantments and Shadow Form, you should be at about 250-300 health when Ext. Ench. ends.BladeDVD 22:29, 2 July 2007 (CDT) Spirits can hit you? The notes say so, I didn't think this was so. — Skuld 11:28, 20 March 2007 (CDT) :They can't, just tested it. Screenie. --Dirigible 11:57, 20 March 2007 (CDT) ::What about bloodsong? Does its attack have to hit for it to steal health? Not that its ever going to matter since bloodsong alone is going to have a very hard time killing you. VegaObscura 12:58, 20 March 2007 (CDT) :::Yes, the attack needs to hit for it to steal health, and with Shadow Form up the spirit's attack always misses, so you don't lose health from Bloodsong. The same goes for Shadow Form and Disenchantment; SF will remain up, since Disenchantment's attack will never land on you. --Dirigible 13:13, 20 March 2007 (CDT) Protective Spirit? Could Protective Spirit work with Shadow Form? : Yes it would, but it's mostly useless, except for the residual damage you would take from a scythe or other AoE type damage. It would not protect against life stealing. -- [[User:Alesain|'Ale']] 21:18, 29 April 2007 (CDT) ::Are you talking about when shadow form ends? Nah, you lose health, so prot spirit wouldn't do anything.M s4 22:02, 29 April 2007 (CDT) :::There is NOTHING you can do to prevent the life loss, except recast to delay the inevitable. There are no skills that will keep you at roughly full health when it ends. Otherwise, everyone in HA would be using that tactic. - Ayumbhara 03:37, 14 June 2007 (CDT) ::::When i first read this, i thought, it would be cast on the sin before shadow form ended, thereby giving him time to heal and not getting killed in a single hit. i could be wrong. very wrong. --[[User:Kurzspear|'Kurzspear']] 08:49, 4 July 2007 (CDT) signet of pious light jsut b4 shadow form ends and you can end with approx 100 health though good for running. Heart of Shadows + Feigned Neutrality Needs functional change? I think this skill has potential. IMO, this skill needs a functionality change. ATM, its only useful in gimmicks, and most obvious buffs would probably make this skill broken. The "lose all but X health when this enchantment ends" clause really hurts this skills viability. Buffing it somehow could make it see play, at least outside of gimmicks. Maybe changing it to an actual Form skill so it isn't abused by dual A/Me's running Arcane Mimicry (I've seen it done before, worked suprisingly well). I probably have no idea of what I'm taking about, but whatever. --NYC Elite 14:41, 12 June 2007 (CDT) :It certainly is not a gimmick skill. It's only seen as a gimmick skill because noobsins like to abuse it. It has its uses. The Lutgardis FFF run is dependent on this. It can be effective for running, farming (not as good as other methods but whatever). I guess because I used to be hardcore Kurzick (my guild owned Altruum Ruins back in the day). So most of you will have a different view of it then me. ::I used to FFF at Lutgardis too, but I'm talking for practical use in PvP and the like. Its a gimmick not just because noobsins like to abuse, but because that's the only way it can be used. The skill is either rediculously abused or rediculously useless. Its like SoJ. Good for farming, but sucks elsewhere. Its abused in PvE for farming purposes, but for general use in PvE and PvP, its useless. Shadow Form is an elite that has potential, but falls short IMO. --NYC Elite 11:45, 22 June 2007 (CDT) :::PROTIP: Not everything has to be entirely for PvP. There's a game outside of PvP. This is a PvE skill pure and simple. Farming, running, whatever. --Mgrinshpon 09:05, 4 July 2007 (CDT) ::::Except for the part where he doesn't care about those. If he's looking for PvP uses, why would he care how many PvE uses it has? -Auron 09:17, 4 July 2007 (CDT) :::::I think this skill is fine as it is. Changing it to a form skill would be odd, given that forms only came about with NF in the dervish, and shadow is not a god. :P PvP and PvE are such different formats it would be naive to think every skill should work just as well in both. --Ufelder 13:26, 4 July 2007 (CDT) ::::::But it'd be plain stupid not to try finding uses in both. -Auron 19:53, 4 July 2007 (CDT) ::::::: if it was a form you could not remove it at all though which would be a pain to everyone ::::::::It wouldn't be plain stupid, it would be plain realistic. Some skills are only useful in PvE OR PvP and that's just fine. Saying "I don't care about PvE" isn't an argument. A.Saturnus 23:18, 22 October 2007 (UTC) :::::::::Yea, this is just like saying, Mesmers need to be good in PvE... some skills are for PvE, some people like to farm, some people like to play PvP, it all depends on what you like doing and how you can find uses for this skill. kthxbye64.229.19.184 20:19, 2 April 2008 (UTC) shield bash if a sin is attacking me with shadow form and i use shield bash, would he/she still be knocked down and have that attack skill disabled?J1j2j3 02:45, 14 June 2007 (CDT) :yes — Skuld 03:48, 14 June 2007 (CDT) ::Don't see why not. --NYC Elite 10:34, 14 June 2007 (CDT) end with inacurate hp lately, I haven't been ending up with more or less hp than 41 when shadow form ends, on Shadow Arts 12. Anyone else can confirm? :This happens to me too. Sometimes, I end up with a little less than 53 hp at 16 SA. It's usually like 50 or 51, nothing big, so it's not because I'm using a "while enchanted" mod. --68.106.221.67 03:12, 19 July 2007 (CDT) I've seen major differances of up to 15 health on my e/a and up to 10 on my a/e i dont know why theres a difference of so much but it can be quiet a pain and quiet a pleasure depending on if its above or below what it should be Been using it on Sousuke while HFFFing and when SF ends, his health drops BELOW 1. I know its no +hp while enchanted mod involved. Can anyody confirm its a bug? --Arthas 18:08, 28 October 2007 (UTC) Symbiosis You lose health per SF's description and the enchant ends, so you also lose max health due to symbiosis. --Fyren 15:00, 30 July 2007 (CDT) :DON't use Shadow Form and Symbiosis together and drop all enchantments at the same time. There are several Dervish spells that drop all enchantments to gain some effect. Symbiosis gives you +150 health for every enchantment. A dervish could go up to 1400 health with the use of Symbiosis. If you drop all enchantments Shadow Form first sets your health back to 35 health with a -450 health and at the same time you get -600 from the drop of the rest of the enchantments. That's -1050 from a max health of 500. I did some testing and the result is always the same. Your dead. It's a bug, because Symbiosis should just effect the max health and drop it from 1100 to 500. And Shadow Form should allways end on 35, no matter what the max health is. Hexhammer 09:09, 21 September 2007 (CDT) ::not true. things that reduce max health (and energy) do so by adding to the bottom of your current health, not the top. this means that if you have 400/600 health and lose 100 max health, you will now have 300/500. you can see this effect very easily by switching to a high or low energy set. 19:54, 28 May 2008 (UTC) Anet is incompetent This skill is designed exclusively to be abused. Invincible solo sins (via Deadly Paradox) in the arenas winning series of games because the other teams give up is utterly broken gameplay.--Mont 06:13, 2 September 2007 (CDT) If this really wrecks you in RA/TA, why don't you bring ONE skill to counter it? -Blackout -Signet of disenchantment -Any AoE damage -Any AoE enchant removal -Wards -Interrupt any skill possible -Traps --Wingspantt 14:00, 6 September 2007 (CDT) :Necromancer touchskills like Wallow's Bite and Touch of Agony go through Shadowform. Combine them with Dark Aura, Aura of the Lich, Mystic Regeneration and Conviction and you'll have a nightmare for Shadow Form Assassins. Hexhammer 09:22, 21 September 2007 (CDT) ::What if a player wants to play any of the 95% of builds that can't target Shadow Form? There are zero reasons to have an invincibility skill that can be kept up indefinitely and that obsoletes all but a fraction of the existing skill library. ::It wouldn't be a problem in RA/TA games if Anet finally implemented a timer. It's an abuse of the system and the community for lone runners and Shadow Form users to bore teams into quitting after 30 minutes with no intention of actually winning the match.--Mont 20:48, 25 September 2007 (CDT) :::Then solve the problems, not the effects. Set a timer and nerf Deadly Paradox. --Macros 20:54, 25 September 2007 (CDT) It is a PvE skill!! Not a freking PvP skill. Anyone who uses Shadow Form Chains in RA/TA is sure to lose as it is the same as wasting a players ability to do something for the team unless you count standing around and being a noob. Possible reference? I think I might have found a reference from another game for this, namely D&D. Look here and see. (second bold from bottom)--71.98.100.170 13:02, 22 September 2007 (CDT) :Does everything have to be a reference? --Macros 13:03, 22 September 2007 (CDT) ::OR it could be that its pretty damned hard to hit a shadow. Lord of all tyria 13:03, 22 September 2007 (CDT) I'm sorry, 71.98.100.170, but u deserve this. -- (Talk) ( ) 21:15, 25 September 2007 (CDT) Wrong category This is in the Form category, when it's an enchantment spell. Could somebody who knows how to chagne categories put this in the right one? Debtmaster 21:07, 30 September 2007 (UTC) :Oh, wow, nevermind... it gets it from the template. Which I just changed :p Debtmaster 21:08, 30 September 2007 (UTC) Shadow Form counters You may not see them in any serious form of PvP yet, but if people ever get ideas...well. I thought I'd keep a list of skills that can counter Shadow Form, other than generic AoE stuff which is iffy at best. *Air of Disenchantment - must be applied before Sin uses SF, or the Sin needs to get close to another foe so they get caught in the AoE. Takes 10 seconds before removing SF. Elite. *Assault Enchantments - must have hit Sin with a Dual Attack before they use SF. Elite. *Chilblains - only if SF Sin gets close to another foe, so they get caught in the AoE. Expensive. Poisons self. *Expunge Enchantments - All Non-Attack skills are disabled, Touch range. *Hex Eater Vortex - only when SF Sin is near a Hexed Ally. Elite. *Grenth's Aura - SF Sin must be in nearby range when it ends. If not ended prematurely, takes 20 seconds. *Lift Enchantment - needs a KD, most KDs are targeted Attacks or Spells. Touch-range. *Rending Aura - Sin must hit the user, so useless if Sin is attacking someone else. *Signet of Disenchantment - Lose all Energy. *Signet of Twilight - Requires Sin to be Hexed; most Hexes are targeted spells that will fail. A few AoE Hexes are available, but they are either PBAoE or would of course require the Sin to be near another foe. *Test of Faith - Sin must get close to another foe to get caught in the AoE, and they must be below 50% Health. Touch range. *Well of the Profane - needs a corpse, not that hard to avoid. Expensive. *Winds of Disenchantment - User must be Enchanted, SF Sin may not be the chosen target if other foes are nearby, user loses all Enchantments. On top of all this, note that the SF Sin can easily counter all of these just by having a Cover Enchantment or two, with the exceptions of Well of the Profane, Test of Faith, and Assault Enchantments. Expunge Enchantments is limited by the number of Non-Attack skills you carry; Signet of Twilight is limited by the number of different Hexes you can get on the Sin; Winds of Enchantment is limited by the number of Enchantments you can get on yourself. (T/ ) 00:36, 15 October 2007 (UTC) :Or you could put up Energizing Winds, causing SF to recharge 25% slower and thus allowing it to end. The assassin could kill it, but the chance of him realizing what will happen if he doesn't kill the spirit is next to none. VegaObscura 07:35, 23 October 2007 (UTC) ::That's pretty devious, though it could also screw your allies over :) (T/ ) 17:57, 28 October 2007 (UTC) NERF BOT They nerfed Deadly Paradox, is it still possible to keep skill up at all times using DP + Arcane Echo? (Deadly Paradox used to be recharge/50%, now it's 33%) --MagickElf666 06:09, 17 October 2007 (UTC) : NOPE :) Chiselman 10:23, 17 October 2007 (UTC) :id like to point out it can be keept up as i managed to do it :P Lodgeinator 17:07, 17 October 2007 (UTC) ::You can but it's pretty precise timing at 16 Shadow Arts...having it higher than that takes special stuff but it becomes a little bit easier. (T/ ) 17:57, 28 October 2007 (UTC) On the other hand: EDIT: NVM found the answer, it's an update as of today As you can see, i'm at lvl10 shadow arts and my shadowform lasts 22second!!! just calling to attention because if this is a change and not a glitch/bug/whatever, the main page needs to be edited. Nailstabber 08:41, 23 May 2008 (UTC) Hi --Lann 21:25, 24 October 2007 (UTC) Tarteting Glitch Just noticed the glitch in an AB and posted it here. If someone else would like to confirm it go ahead. Basically I hit 'C' to target nearest opponent, so the ally targeting spell would hit me. Instead of retargeting me, Protective Bond and Restful Breeze were interrupted with "Spell Failed because target had Shadow Form" message appearing. Desolation0 17:47, 28 October 2007 (UTC) Yes, well you did target an opponent, and as shadow form skill description says any spell targeting that foe fails... :Except it's an enchantment that cannot target an enemy. When an enchantment (other than AoD) is used, if you are targeting an enemy it will automatically cast on yourself. What he's saying is undoubtedly a glitch --Gimmethegepgun 02:32, 8 January 2008 (UTC) On people who whine about Shadow Form in PvP If you hate those sins that constantly use Deadly Paradox + Arcane Echo + Shadow Form to screw up your winning streak in RA, HA, TA, etc., then here's a simple solution: Have all team members pack in at least one skill that is either AoE, a Signet, or Touch. Using an interrupting AoE, Signet, or Touch can screw up an invinci-sin's combo (It's usually Deadly Paradox, then Arcane Echo, then Shadow Form, then Feigned Neutrality). Also, if you're stuck in a stalemate, you can always wait until the timer ticks down. <_< Remember, if you're whining about how so many invinci-sins plague PvP nowadays, you're even worse than them for not figuring a way around it. The Shadow Form build is stupid and easy to negate, so don't whine about it hear on Wiki. You can also look at the counters listed above. --70.176.247.196 00:52, 7 November 2007 (UTC) Easier: Don't do RA, TA and HA. Always worked for me. Flechette 06:26, 7 November 2007 (UTC) Or, use another popular gimmick: Tranquility + Nature's Renewal. Then you don't even need Enchant removal. (T/ ) 06:31, 7 November 2007 (UTC) Isn't there a build somewhere on PvX that uses spirits to...how did he put it..."screw everyone"? --[[User:Marin Bloodbane|''Marin]][[User talk:Marin Bloodbane|Bloodbane]] 20:20, 7 November 2007 (UTC) Yeah, I saw that. It's kind of stupid. >.> Killing all those spirits would take no time at all, I'd bet anything my warrior could kill spirits faster than they could create them, not to mention recharge time issues and the fact that they have to stand still the whole time. 76.174.13.77 10:36, 12 November 2007 (UTC) Invinci-sin = dead [[user:Entrea Sumatae|'Entrea Sumatae']] [Talk] 23:00, 6 December 2007 (UTC) How hard is it to get that the Invinci Sin is a PvE build? :got an extra slot? Lyssa's Balance. gg ::Lyssa's is a spell. gg Yatesinater 06:04, 3 April 2008 (UTC) PvE/PvP Balancing So i heard this skills duration is going to be increased to 5..30 seconds for PvE. 19:10, 21 May 2008 (UTC) :Yep. Links make everyone happy: Developer Updates/20080521. —Dr Ishmael 20:14, 21 May 2008 (UTC) ::That's sooooo lame... PvGodmode. --- -- (s)talkpage 20:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC) ::: Hello, my name is Assassin. I'll be the #1 farming character in this game from now on. GW-Haxor 13:36, 22 May 2008 (UTC) ::::Shadow Form is far too vulnerable to counters to ever take over farming from the multitude of 600 bars running around. "on hit" or "on contact" sources like Ignite Arrows or Chilling Victory blow through SF like its not even there not to mention touch skills or signets. The only thing it really does is make the Droks run and Raptor farming idiot proof...with a ~38 second SF (20% ench) there is just no excuse for screwups. 04:01, 23 May 2008 (UTC) :::::Neither of those two examples will touch a solo perma-SF, actually. The touches and signets, sure, but IA and CV require a target to hit, which SF does not provide. Targren 18:09, 11 June 2008 (UTC) ::::::Ignite Arrows hits through Shadow Form. I found that out the hard way running Droks. Tala Truestrike 21:29, 23 June 2008 (UTC) ::::::: Splash damage, like if a grenade was thrown towards someone else, and you were relatively nearby, you would still feel it :P [[User:Ipo|'}{Ipo™}{]] 21:43, 23 June 2008 (UTC) ::::::::Yes Targren both do hit, one indirectly and one directly. Mystic Twister will also hit through shadow along with a whole host of other spells/skills not just signets and touches. It only guards against explicitly directed spells/attacks and thats why it has so many vulnerabilities. 05:56, 1 July 2008 (UTC) Calculations I did these calculations to see if it would work. Shadow form will be increased to 5..30 seconds. 30 seconds being 12 in shadow arts. 16 in shadow arts will be approximately 35 seconds. +20% enchants would be an additional 7 seconds. This would make shadow form last 42 seconds! Now with deadly paradox, it would reduce shadow forms recharge time down to 41 seconds. Now we don't need perfect timing or echo to make shadow form perma. Happy farming :) Avatar Zukoh 14:49, 22 May 2008 (UTC) :Doesn't GWW use the 0..15 rather than 0..12 to it wil be 30s at 15 not 12. I think anyway. 14:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC) ::We use 0..15, the update notes (including dev notes) use 0..12, and GWW actually uses 0..12..15. I'm pretty sure. —Dr Ishmael 15:06, 22 May 2008 (UTC) :::I'm pretty sure we use 0..12, GWW uses 0..12..15 and update notes use 0..15. Look at the disclaimer at the top of Game updates. JonTheMon 15:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC) ::::Bah, I got it backwards... that's what I meant. >.> —Dr Ishmael 15:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC) :::::Even if it's only 30@15, with enchanting you'd get 35 seconds out of it. Now, if you really wanted it to be perma, you could throw on Glyph of Swiftness and get it down to a 30s recharge. JonTheMon 15:31, 22 May 2008 (UTC) ::::::Do Glyph of swiftness and deadly paradox stack? Avatar Zukoh 15:34, 22 May 2008 (UTC) :::::::Up to 50% JonTheMon 15:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC) ::::::::yes that does work, and at 16 shadow arts SF is 32 secs 20% enchant makes it 38 secs Larsie538 18:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC) :::::::::But just using Arcane Echo+Shadow Form won't work, will it? Because 20 seconds (cut short due to Arcane Echo)+38=58? >.> -Mike 10:57, 23 May 2008 (UTC) ::::::::::The echoed Shadow Form won't be "cut short" when Arcane Echo reverts on your skill bar, the Shadow Form enchantment will still last its normal duration. —Dr Ishmael 13:15, 23 May 2008 (UTC) :::::::::::No, but after the first Shadow Form is cast, you have to finish casting the echo'd version within 20s or it will revert. JonTheMon 13:47, 23 May 2008 (UTC) ::::::::::::Ah, of course. -_- —Dr Ishmael 13:54, 23 May 2008 (UTC) :::::::::::::If it lasted a little bit longer, we would have been able to farm in permanent SF without having all of our attack skills disabled from Deadly Paradox. Oh well, a buff is a buff (in PvE, of course). =P -Mike 17:31, 23 May 2008 (UTC) ::::::::::::::Well, it seems you can perma-SF only with a 20% enchantment mod and when standing in Blessed Water ::::::::::::::Essence of Paradoxial Celery. --- -- (s)talkpage 17:35, 23 May 2008 (UTC) :::::::::::::::Quickening Zephyr. Solo farming is overrated. 19:58, 28 May 2008 (UTC) ::::::::::::::::QZ hurts the blue bar. BIG! --- -- (s)talkpage 20:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC) :::::::::::::::::Solofarm 100 ectos in 2 days tbh. Lord of all tyria 20:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC) ::::::::::::::::::FREE ECHO MENDING! :::::::::::::::::::I pray for a nerf... this is just plain stupid... plain stupid. Big Bow 06:38, 24 June 2008 (UTC) Needs balancing in PvE In PvE: Reasons: It doesn't take any skill to be invincible and farm hundreds of ectos. Guild Wars cannot be called competive mmorpg so long as this situation remains. I will probably take this suggestion to official wiki as well when I have some more time. J Striker 11:38, 2 July 2008 (UTC) The first and the third, the look good, but not the second, because that would make it completely unremovable. Chilblains and well of the profane, along with all those sin skills, would be useless against them, mostly chilblains, because that is common in pve.Arcdash 12:47, 2 July 2008 (UTC) :Oh lol, I didn't think about that unremoveable thing at all... *strikes it down* J Striker 13:53, 2 July 2008 (UTC) ::All they need to do is revert the update, tbh. Or, they could move some things around in the UW run (make the Obsidian Behemoths '''always spawn in the way, for instance, or add more Charged Blacknesses.) [[User:St. Michael|'ــѕт.']][[user_talk:St. Michael|'мıкε']] 14:08, 2 July 2008 (UTC) Ok, I bite; *why* would GW not be a competitive mmorpg if anyone can farm ectos ? What about 55hp, 600hp/smiting ? Mist Form farmer and dozens of other farming builds ? Of what about Ursan farming parties ? Why is this different ? only because ecto farming was a bit more difficult then before ? IMHO, ectro prices will drop (is dropping, actually) and that is a shame for people wanting to be 'elite' wearing obsedian armor or the ones who has stacks of ectos in their storage. For me, as player that don't care much about earning gold nor wearing obsedian, nothing changes that much for GW..-- -- ( talk ) 14:24, 2 July 2008 (UTC) :I actually don't like most of the Obsidian armor skins. ~.~ The thing is, Monks were the ones doing most of the farming, and I never cared for Monking, and now, Sins get a chance to do so, too, maybe just a little too easy, though. [[User:St. Michael|'ــѕт.']][[user_talk:St. Michael|'мıкε']] 15:02, 2 July 2008 (UTC) Well, there is the nerf. You deal 50% less damage. ~Guest, 00:05 @ UTC+2, 2 July 2008 :Odd nerf, it doesn't affect perma form as much as it does farming. Ok then.Arcdash 22:20, 2 July 2008 (UTC) ToA is going nuts. The update... This week I bought 120 ecto at 3.5-3.8k each, and was looking for a forgemaster run to get FoW armor. Lo and behold the update comes around, and ecto are fluctuating between 5-7k. I think I got lucky. The A/E run nerf sucks, but at least I have something to profit from. And possibly ecto will be around normal. Yey. WOOHOO I LOVE that update !!!!!!(really :) ) No more solo Uw and No more solo Green Farmer 23:10, 2 July 2008 (UTC) :Srry my new build wins SF nerf http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:A/E_UW_Chaos_Plains_Farmer -Shureshot ::Sorry, but that'd be slow. And slow is sloooow. Besides, only half the enemies = half the loot = 1-5 ectos per run, with more than 30min per run. Meh-able. --- -- (s)talkpage 08:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC) Does the half damage reduce the bonusdamage from the ebon battle standard of honor ? 14:35, 3 July 2008 (UTC) :Yes, it reduced the dmg from EBSoH ICY FIFTY FIVE 07:15, 4 July 2008 (UTC) That's it! I'm starting the first riot! I hate this stupid nerf! I can't farm anything with the 50% damage penalty like bosses or the Underworld, and they destroy Underworld farming completely! As such, I am going to host a riot/protest against this damn nerf at the Temple of Ages. Who's with me?--Dark Paladin X 00:51, 3 July 2008 (UTC) :Something was ridiculously overpowered, and it got nerfed. And this is a problem because of what exactly? Quizzical 00:54, 3 July 2008 (UTC) :They nerf Shadowform but not ursan? Sweet now Assassin can do what?-- 04:53, 3 July 2008 (UTC) Noones with you...Because we like playing a fun and balanced game. PossessedLinebeck 00:56, 3 July 2008 (UTC) ::All they needed to nerf was the Underworld, they could have left the skill alone. 03:14, 3 July 2008 (UTC) :::At least they didn't touch the PvP version of it... ofc the whole thing was about farming. J Striker 03:31, 3 July 2008 (UTC) ::::I think it was probably the smartest nerf they've done in a while. Shadow Form should be a last resort escaping skill.~'' [[User:Gold Dean|'Gold']] [[User:Gold Dean|'Dean']] - 03:44, 3 July 2008 (UTC) :::::SMARTEST THING EVER DONE!!! Dude, you do realize that not only they nerfed the UW, but they also nerfed boss farming as well. This is pretty much the STUPIDEST thing they ever done in GW.--Dark Paladin X 04:38, 3 July 2008 (UTC) :::::An Elite should never be a last resort escaping skill... that's why no one used to use Escape. 03:52, 3 July 2008 (UTC) ::::::Patience, it's a virtue. If you're getting killed by things like touchers somewhere, include some healing skills from Shadow Arts, you already have a lot of points in it anyway :P. I use Shadow Refuge on my Raptor farmer to fight Twisting Jaws. So, nyah.--Land of the Long White Cloud 04:48, 3 July 2008 (UTC) This was a stupid nerf indeed, they only needed to nerf the UW, the 50% damage reduction was unnecesary Cosm01 06:13, 3 July 2008 (UTC) :Perfectly necessary, SF was used to farm just about everything --Gimmethegepgun 07:08, 3 July 2008 (UTC) ::...and will continue to be used to farm just about everything, just more slowly. -- 07:44, 3 July 2008 (UTC) :::Farming isn't supposed to be the way to play GW, it was almost like an exploit. It was fixed. frankly i am glad they have, ectos have risen back up a bit. just get over yourselves and go back to playing UW for fun. infact. play GW for fun not to get the 'best' stuff.--Peace Out ::::Yeah well now how the fuck do we play UW for fun when the only SHIT we can run with is FUCKING URSAN. WTJ BALANCED PUG TEAM? OSHIT I JUST REALISED NONE EXIST. STFU AND GTFO. But it was fun to just go round and farm bosses, as I said it was needed that they made it unable to farm the UW, but the 50% less dmg is just annoying. Cosm01 08:12, 3 July 2008 (UTC) Anyone notice how shadow runes where costing 25k? That was more then likely due to its buff this will fix that problem I think, yeah its weaker now but the point is you shouldn't be able to solo UW certainly not that easy. boss farming was nerfed but people always say sins cant farm without sf which is total crap, I've never once had problems farming with my sin. I dont see what some people are complaining about , this nerf was well deserved , the economy was going bonklers just due to this skill. Oremir12:39, 3 July 2008 I disagree that is was "Just due to this skill". Over-farming in general is the cause. However just like Apple and they're iPhone "Update" now I'm left with a 1k elite "Brick":P Kael Drake5:47, 3, July 2008 Why are u ppl always talkin about farmin... what a waste of time, instead i go to work and do more hours to get more money which i can spend to buy chinese gw-gold-> 10x more than im ever able to farm in the same time. get real, farmin... so gay...gaiy :They always steal my credit cards though, and I can never understand what they're saying :( --Macros 15:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC) This was necessary. SF was overused and way to powerful. This put it back in its place. Frankly, I'd rather they have made it like the PvP without the 50% so atleast boss farming was still allowed, but really, this was needed. HEAVEN FORBID you find another farm, or HEAVEN FORBID you make your own build.Gorbachev116 15:02, 3 July 2008 (UTC) :They should have just reverted the buff to SF, so that it would still be usable for Raptor Farming and such. [[User:St. Michael|'ــѕт.]][[user_talk:St. Michael|мıкε']] 15:17, 3 July 2008 (UTC) It was a necessary nerf, but it was overdone. The SF sin is now uncapable of soloing much of any area and others classes are at a major advantage in comparision. If character class equity is what is being discussed then other classes chould be nerfed as well and not just the sin. A possible compromise would be to just halve the base damage of the daggers and not the bonus damage from skills/spells. This could have the potential to be fair as skills and spells cost energy that must be constantly managed under most SF builds. :The problem with that is that very few run daggers at all, and it was the spells that caused the economy to drop. Sins will probably have to go back to using Critical Defenses and farming physicals again. [[User:St. Michael|'ــѕт.]][[user_talk:St. Michael|мıкε']] 17:42, 3 July 2008 (UTC) :"The SF sin is now uncapable of soloing much of any area..." Huh? They can farm pretty much everywhere they could farm before, except UW. They just do it more slowly. -- 21:19, 3 July 2008 (UTC) ::"They just do it more slowly" Have you tried to kill a monk or a group with one since the build was nerfed? It's next to impossible, the reduced damage that this build now causes is wiped clean within seconds.... ::"''Why are u ppl always talkin about farmin... what a waste of time, instead i go to work and do more hours to get more money which i can spend to buy chinese gw-gold-> 10x more than im ever able to farm in the same time. get real, farmin... so gay...gaiy" For a start isnt buying gold with real money against the rules of gw? second there are many ways to farm with sins without crit sins and without sf, you can even solo uw with one or two builds (Well not now cause it uses enchantments) but anyway. I think people whining about this nerf is a little stupid if you care that much about farming go make a 55hp monk.-- 22:20, 3 July 2008 (UTC) :::me again, yes they say its against the rules because u 55hp monks and 600hp and whatever farms in gw would go angry if they let it be legal... in reality dont u think the gw developers didnt thought of selling gold in game for real money from beginning? yes they maybe punish 1 or 2 ppl for buyin gold, but thats only for pretending punishment for all buyers. it would make the game for many player useless because it would be a waste of time to farm (what it really is) so ppl who want to farm are farming, others who buy gold for real money are buying and everyone is happy especially me when im laughing on every gay fissure monk with tormented weapon set died totally black because i know he wasted plenty of his time in mindless farming... somehow my keyboard doesnt work very well...whatever, farming sucks. Question? why they never nerved Protective Spirit? because u monks would all pee ur fissure pants by crying for unnervin it. I really, really hate this damn nerf! They should have just nerfed Underworld, that's it. With the 50% dmg penalty,which was an ubernerf, then there is no way for me to farm greens for my heroes and get elite tomes for my newest characters to make their life easier. As such, the nerf made solo boss farming impossible.--Dark Paladin X 03:55, 4 July 2008 (UTC) Cry me a river, now your gonna have to get into ursan grps and actually play the game sucks for you. your really gonna miss spending 3h in a row farming ecto so that you could make the prices of crystallines/ voltaic spears/ rare pets/ rare stuff in general. If not farming is that bad for you get a life or end the one you already have. Perfect nerf a net, keep the good nerfs comming so the kids that dont have enough pocket money to play wow will flee gw. :Wow, you're such a fucking idiot. Ursan is NOT playing the game, farming takes more skill than pressing 1-2-3. The reason most of us fucking solo farm now is because ursan is fucking SHIT. It's STUPID AND PATHETIC. If it was put back in its place then we could actually BALANCED DoA or UW, and THAT is playing the game. Shut the fuck up and get the fuck out, please. :: dood NPA plz... and QQ that they nerfed an OP skill. 55 monks and 600 monks are NOT imba because they can actauly be pwned by MOST CREATURES IN GW. The SF sins could farm more than 80% of the game. IMO the entire skill should be removed from the game (or cahnged like WoD). Yea Ursan is lame... so dont join it. If you cant find a decent balanced PUG then you arent looking hard enough. Hit me up IGN: "Echo Ftw". I got a monk and warrior in pve. Im pretty sure the ol 5 man still works (1 war tank 1 SS 1 MM 1 Heal 1 bond) for a lot of areas. besides, for ursan you need a full team of 8... so it isnt really OP for one guy. Just relax, everyone knew it was coming anyway! 23:58, 6 July 2008 (UTC) :::3+1 ursan/monk can handle the same amount of aggro under consumables as a 5 man tank and spank with some basic aggro control. Shadow Form is vulnerable to a huge list of counters including splash damage, signets, untargetted AoE...shall I go on? I don't know where people keep getting the idea that its invincibility. The idea behind perma-sins effectiveness is farming where monks are not present to heal over their damage which is now very limited (50%). 55/600 both use a huge number of cover enchants with spell breaker (or SoJ). I didn't see anyone complaining when 600/famine teams bled the foundry dry and strip mined Titan Gemstones back when they were 100k/ea. How about CoF which is still run today and the principle reason why Onyx Gemstones stabilized under 1k/ea. I think the most vocal complainers here are people who play monks and now no longer rule the roost when it comes to farming high value items. No doubt there are some very very wealthy monks out there who sequentially moved from 55 -> 600/famine -> 600/smite over the course of the games history. The lesson to be learned here is: don't use a commodity that can be bought for prices determined by supply and demand at a merchant as reserve currency, its too easy to manipulate personal wealth. Everyone should have switched to lockpicks when they first became available as an item. 20:19, 7 July 2008 (UTC) :::lol ectos are used as THE currency by the majority of players in guild wars. And my point is that all the invincible monk builds are balanced because they have a large list of counters. The SF sin can only be taken down by a few non-spell enchant removals. And 3/4 of the assassin ones dont work because they have pre-requisites. The SF sin is MUCH more survivable than a monk. Hell, you dont even have to worry about interupts, the most basic counter to anything, because you are virtually immune. Ask anyone what is more survivable, a SF sin or an invincimonk. Then come back and report your findings. 00:59, 8 July 2008 (UTC) ::::Don't patronize me...under 600/smite the 600 is functionally invincible through 3 mechanisms Protective Spirit, nearly "perma" Spell Breaker, and Spirit Bond in place of high base regen like Breeze or Mystic. This is really a corruption of the REAL invincimonk "600" pre-spirit bond nerf. This allows the 600 to focus entirely on defense rather than a split bar of the traditional 55 monk. If you couple this with a R/Mo famine bonder there is literally no area in the game you can't clear compared to the extremely limited farming ability of "permasins". The "permasin" exploits something a solo monk has never been good at, mesmers. At least not without burning a slot and energy for Mantra. The least you could do here if you insist on arguing about this is be honest. People complained because there are several conspiring factors that broke UW "permasin" farming. ::::1. They can handle mindblades faster and therefore more profitably than a 600/smite or terra-tank could (which by the way both could still farm if one were so inclined). ::::2. Its an area rich in ectoplasm (by sheer number of foes 180 pre, 104 post) that had remained previously unexploited due to limited monk farming builds (55 was the SOP for years until 600 came around). ::::3. I can promise you right now if "permasins" never touched ectoplasm, due to its reserve currency status, we never would have heard about this. ::::Now, since you left me with a point I'll return the favor. Find me a "permasin" who can solo+1 clear HM eotn dungeons (Ooze, CoF, Rragar's, Kathandrax, Shards...just to name a few 600's can run) in a reasonable amount of time. Reasonable being near or less time than a traditional party. I'll go ahead and give you a hint bonds don't trigger through SF. Hell you go find me a "permasin" who can even clear past the 1st room of the foundry in a solo+1 and I'll be impressed. Again, no one cried when Titan Gemstones fell to 4% of their initial value due to nerfless overfarming. 18:28, 10 July 2008 (UTC) im mclovin this nerf topic. ♥Misfate♥ 15:26, 3 July 2008 (UTC) :And I'm mchating it. — [[User:EXtinctioN|'eX'tinctioN]] 18:57, 3 July 2008 (UTC) ::good for you --Gimmethegepgun 19:02, 3 July 2008 (UTC) :::I love this nerf...but it was a little overdone, but understandable. Me and my friend used to farm ectos the original way, and this was extremely hurting the economy of the entire game. Now i can actually make decent money off of the ectos i farm. Thank you ANET--Manbeast15 19:07, 3 July 2008 (UTC) ::::I'm loving this nerf simply because I knew they were going to hit SF sins with the nerf-bat, but I was expecting them to actually break SF sin builds. Instead, all they've done is slow them down, while leaving them perfectly usable. This nerf is way, way less severe than I was expecting. -- 21:23, 3 July 2008 (UTC) I am not, BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HELP ANYTHING, it just made things more annoying and take more time. They just should have totally made it unable to farm the chaos plains, and never nerfed this because as I said IT DOESN'T HELP ANYTHING, it just made things more annoying and take more time. Ecto's will continue to drop in price and economy will still be ruined, well done A-net, well done. 00:39, 4 July 2008 (UTC) :If things take longer, less people might farm for it or at least make less ectos per hour, which will at least slow down the decay of prices or reduce the amount of 'casual' farmers. The only one who won't feel hurt much are probly bots. the nerf is good. in my opinion they should prohibit solo farming at all. so greens, rare crafting materials etc go back to normal prices. a green should be something special, now it is the standard crap. greens for heroes should be bought at an outpost for lots of money, i remember the old days... GW has far too less special things, max armor (imo the only max armor should be the obsidian, but the game should still be playable with non-max armor, same with weapons). farming is just stupid and i admit i farmed pretty much, but just for fun and rarely for the money. i hate that money making mentality. the game should be played as it was meant to be. ah nevermind i quit playing anyway, and that's why... Sins are still the best runners. This is still unfair. Agreed? PwnageLlama 23:49, 3 July 2008 (UTC) :No. Because runs are less common with max armor being much more easily unobtainable.--Land of the Long White Cloud 00:53, 4 July 2008 (UTC) ::Dervish ICY FIFTY FIVE 07:21, 4 July 2008 (UTC) :::It's not really unfair or anything. Assassins are supposed to be like that imo. J Striker 10:27, 4 July 2008 (UTC) :::: First, Land of the Long White Cloud: I don't understand what you are trying to say. Mind explaining? Second, Dervishes: I have a dervish, and though they are good runners, they can't run Elona's Reach Mish and Bonus Hard mode. With perma-form, I ran it on my first try. How is this fair? It blows all competition out of the water. PwnageLlama 04:57, 5 July 2008 (UTC) :::::I think what Land meant is that you had to get through a bunch of missions to reach Droks, while in the other campaigns, you can get max armor in your first or second day of playing if you follow the storyline quickly. Plus, runs aren't worth nearly as much as they were before. [[User:St. Michael|'ــѕт.']][[user_talk:St. Michael|'мıкε']] 13:30, 5 July 2008 (UTC) Not even a nerf There is alrdy a build going around for UW solo farming... with the infinite duration it's possible to still do it... *sigh* They should revert that skill duration like it was... Big Bow 21:36, 6 July 2008 (UTC) :You kill half as fast and can't farm as many monsters in the UW. It just means you have to be a better and more conscious farmer, and I'm sure half of the A/Es are turned off by the nerf and changes to UW to the point where they've given up on perma-form farming. Plus, the ecto prices are back up (I'm not exactly sure because I haven't checked in a couple days, though), so the nerf did what it was supposed to: restore Guild Wars' economy. [[User:St. Michael|'ــѕт.']][[user_talk:St. Michael|'мıкε']] 22:26, 6 July 2008 (UTC) ::It's as ez as before to farm ectos and almost as long... imo sin farmers have the chance to make a lot more money these days Big Bow 22:33, 6 July 2008 (UTC) :::I don't know what trade channel you are watching but ecto is right back floating in the 3.1-3.5 range again post-nerf. There is a glut of it right now on the market from people trying to price fix right after the nerf (thus sending ecto up into the 6's temporarily). Only 2 things will slow down farming...yet another nerf or massive drop in demand with supply remaining at an all time high. Its as easy to farm ecto in the planes as it has ever been. Its to the point now where its incredibly boring and 3k/ea ecto just isn't as profitable. There are probably some people out there who have just gotta farm that fourth stack but most folks cash out sooner than that when they realize no one is buying. 19:55, 7 July 2008 (UTC) interesting I find it interesting that though worded the same as Flurry, this decreases spell damage while flurry doesn't. --Shadowcrest 20:32, 13 July 2008 (UTC) Buff Soooo.. They buffed it again. What on earth is A-net doing? Maybe the 50% was a little too much, but you'd expect them to see the consequences. I think 33% is better though. But I don't care too much about SF. OMGWTFCHEESEFRIES 21:54, 8 August 2008 (UTC) :http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_Shadow_Form_Scythe tbh. Who even needs Ursan now? XD [[User:St. Michael|'ــѕт.']][[user_talk:St. Michael|'мıкε']] 22:20, 8 August 2008 (UTC) Hello... could they put an assassin in like the first chamber of the uw that has the remove enchantment touch sskil and make it not very danaging to anything else just to destroy the 55hp and the shadow form in one go? :This is why GW is a team game and you come prepared for these sorts of things. (T/ ) 23:03, 26 October 2008 (UTC) Archive I dunno how big a page has to be..so forgive me if this is stupid, but this is a pretty big page, does it need an archive? ( I dunno how to do it so if it does someone else will have to do.)